News and views related to Low Limit Poker, specifically Texas Hold'em, Omaha, and Seven Card Stud. Associated with the Low Limit Websites (www.lowlimitholdem.com, www.lowlimitomaha.com, www.lowlimitstud.com).

Tuesday, August 03, 2004

What's Legal and What's Right

First let me assure you that at some point we're actually going to talk about something that relates to playing Low Limit Holdem, it's just not going to be this entry.

This entry I'm going to talk about the site (www.lowlimitholdem.com) and one of the longest running unchanged entries in it--the starting hand selections.

Back in the day (the day being towards the end of the year in 2000) we listed the Sklansky and Malmuth starting hands (from their book Hold 'em Poker For Advanced Players) to show a contrast between what they suggest for a typical middle limit game and what works for a loose passive game (the no foldem holdem games you find at especially the 2-4 and 3-6 limits in brick and mortar cardrooms). This section of the web site stood as is for a few years and then in December 2003 I received an email from Mason Malmuth, or at least someone impersonating him, demanding that we remove their starting hand selections from the site.

My initial reaction was that this may be a prank of some sort and even if it wasn't I felt that we probably had a right to publish this short excerpt to compare to what we were offering for low limit games. The first thing I did was to ask Mr. Malmuth to give me a call to talk about it. This would scare off most casual pranksters but Mason did in fact phone me and we talked about the situation for about ten minutes.

At the end of the phone call I decided to remove the section in our starting hand selections that listed the S&M starting hands. I didn't do this because I thought I was in legal danger but simply because I respect both of these poker authors and because we got right down to it on the phone and the bottom line is that I told him that although I didn't like the tone of the original email that all he needed to do was ask me to remove them and I would--not for legal reasons but for reasons of respect and acknowledgement of his contribution to the poker world before it was the chic thing to do.

Since I removed them I've received several emails from various people pointing out that the copyright law has the following restriction:

Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:

Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration

In short that legally I shouldn't feel compelled to keep the S&M starting hand selections off the web site. Legally I don't. But I did make an agreement with one of the great poker writers to keep it off the site so I will.

Really it's irrelevant because if you're serious about playing poker you're at least going to own a copy of the book they wrote that contains these starting hand selections anyhow, right? You can order a copy directly from the publisher at www.twoplustwo.com. Tell them I sent you.

6 comments:

Anonymous said...

Or you could "cheat" and reference another site that does have them...like this one: http://www.learn-texas-holdem.com/texas-holdem-hand-groupings.htm

:)

I highly recommend reading this entire site for the beginner in us all.

Low Limit said...

I think that site is worth visiting however I wouldn't wait for a link to its copy of the S&M starting hands anytime soon.

Stephen said...

I first came upon LLHSAT about two years ago, and one of the things I found most helpful was the quality book reccomendations. I bought S&M's "Hold 'Em Poker For Advanced Players" pretty much solely on this site's say-so; today I own about half a dozen 2+2 books (including the great and recently-released "Small Stakes Hold 'Em").

Part of the reason I was so quick to buy the S&M book was the great hand-ranking chart on LLHSAT. I am glad that you are willing to respect the wishes of Malmuth, but it seems a shame he is so over-protective of that content. I understand that he wouldn't want sites all over posting his work, but LLHSAT acts in parts as a big ad for his publishing company. I'm a loyal 2+2 customer because of the site.

Josh said...

I think posting the hand rankings can be a bit dangerous anyway. Too many people make an attempt to memorize them without taking into account the situation. "This hand is in Group 3 and I'm in EP so I must raise." Knowing the distinctions between big unsuited cards, big suited cards, suited connectors, pairs, suited aces, etc., as well as what types of games and situations to play them in, is critical in becoming a good player. Memorizing some list of hands from a book intended for middle limit games won't make someone a good player.

If you're in a wild, loose-aggressive game and you're holding T9s in MP, it's an easy muck, while a hand like 22, ranked much lower, is probably better, because if you flop a set, you'll get paid off.

texas-holdem said...

For winning more in low limit Texas Holdem poker games, have a close look at my Poker Sidekick poker odds calculator software. It includes a modified form of the Sklansky starting hands (which helps to memorize the starting hand groups at least), as well as calculates overall hand strength based upon your current hand and your draw situation vs. opponents.

Personally, playing limit holdem is all about playing the odds, understanding pot odds and playing them correctly so you have an hourly rate of return. You can check out my Texas Holdem Tournament Series articles on tournament play, betting strategy, systems for winning sit and go tournaments and more.

Good luck!

Rick (a.k.a. texas-holdem)

pokergirl said...

Hi

You mentioned the Slansky book for Advanced Users. I am a beginner. What would be a good started book to learn how to play Texas Hold em?

Caterina
http://floridapokervirgin.blogspot.com/